If Abortion Were Illegal…

what should happen to the women who have abortions?

That question was asked of a number of abortion protesters. They seemed stumped. From the Anna Quindlen column at Newsweek

Buried among prairie dogs and amateur animation shorts on YouTube is a curious little mini-documentary shot in front of an abortion clinic in Libertyville, Ill. The man behind the camera is asking demonstrators who want abortion criminalized what the penalty should be for a woman who has one nonetheless. You have rarely seen people look more gobsmacked. It’s as though the guy has asked them to solve quadratic equations. Here are a range of responses: “I’ve never really thought about it.” “I don’t have an answer for that.” “I don’t know.” “Just pray for them.”

You have to hand it to the questioner; he struggles manfully. “Usually when things are illegal there’s a penalty attached,” he explains patiently. But he can’t get a single person to be decisive about the crux of a matter they have been approaching with absolute certainty.

Here’s that “curious little mini-documentary”

Best exchange.

Q: And what should happen to those women who have illegal abortions?

A: [pause]
A: [shrug]
A: Well…
A: I don’t know what should really happen to them. I would hope that they would in time come to see what they’ve done and be sorry for it. But, I think we need to treat them with love.

Q: If abortion is made illegal, should women be sent to jail who have abortions?

A: [pause]
A: [shrug]
A: I’ve never really thought about it.

Q: How long have you been working in this movement?

A: A couple years.

Hmm. Does anyone else see a minor disconnect here?

Of course the video, produced by AtCenterNetwork.com, might have cut out all the really amazingly clever answers outlining the exact penalty structure, but if you watch the video, you notice this is not a major theme in rallies. Only one of protesters actually managed to come up with a minorly coherent answer.

According to Quindlen, George H. W. Bush was asked the question over 20 years ago and came up with the answer, “I still haven’t worked out the penalties”. Quindlen’s full column should be read in full and needs more links, blog time and – um – links. A little love thrown at AtCenterNetwork would be nice too. Help me out here folks.

Perhaps this is something the far right needs to work on. Just a hint guys. You can use the prairie dog video for practicing “the look” but you’ll have to get ghetto blasters for the scare music…

[YouTube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHjFxJVeCQs]

(Hat Tip: Wonkette)

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31 comments so far

  1. […] interesting post at Eclectics Anonymous looks at how abortion opponents respond when asked about penalties for those who might violate an […]

  2. Curious on

    I always wanted to make a tee shirt saying “ProLife – Forced pregnancy”. Maybe I will now.

  3. Bob on

    Here is a novel idea, penaltize they people who perform the abortion not the woman.

  4. Trekker on

    In response to Bob’s clearly thought-through comment: What if the performer IS the woman? What if she is so afraid of seeking medical attention because of the social stigma and/or illegalization that she tries to do it herself? Seriously, if it’s criminalized for providers and there becomes a lack of providers do you think that everyone is going to say “oh, we just won’t do that then” (like other illegal acts such as murder – just because it’s illegal doesn’t mean it won’t happen)?
    And don’t assume that I am not against abortions just because I have a valid question either.

  5. Ben on

    Curious-
    It wouldn’t bother them.
    Try “ProLife – Legalize female slavery!”

    Bob-
    Here are a couple of novel questions.
    1. Exactly which penalties should be given to “those who perform abortions?” Death? Life without parole? 20 years? 10 years? It is first degree murder after all.

    2. If abortion is murder, wouldn’t the woman be an accessory. That is how the American justice system works. Right? Thus you would have to punish them – it’s only fair.

    3. Assuming you attempt to penalize “those who perform abortions,” do you really think they will be effective? Don’t most doctors earn enough to be able to hire fairly effective attorneys? Then you have to have prosecutors who are not just effective in party circles, they have to be good attorneys? I wonder if those are in short supply right now?

    Trekker,
    It’s unlikely the performer will be the woman. You would see two things. Abortion “holidays” where the rich and middle class women go to countries where abortion is still legal. Poor women who can’t afford to have the children in the first place will either have the (unwanted) children or will have back alley abortions performed. Anyone who has read histories about how those used to work makes no illusions about whether the woman would indeed sometimes be punished with the death penalty – in pain and hemorrhaging.

  6. jennifer on

    And what is the point of this story? To prove that those who are smart enough to realize killing children in the womb are somehow stupid? Give me a break. I’m not falling for that one nor any other brainwashing used to convince the world that tearing live human children into pieces and throwing them into the garbage disposal and incinerator is ok. Yes if abortion was illegal, woman would still get them. But then again, murder is illegal, but people still murder everyday. Just because people will still do it, doesn’t mean it’s ok. Abortion is wrong, period. You woman who say pro-life is slavery clearly only care about yourselves and think your ego should be satisfied even if it comes at the cost of brutally mutilating a living human being. That’s a Nazi mentality. If you so-called feminists REALLY care about women, you’d fight to help women who only have abortions because they are FORCED to under their unfortunate circumstances. As for the rest of the women who have abortions because they simply don’t want their baby, why should there be sympathy for them for dying from a back alley abortion? Women want equality? No, they want special treatment. They want the world to sympathize for them and their plight, for men to commit no violence aganst them and to be treated with respect and regard as human beings just like men. But to turn around and bestow that same respect and regard to a child in the womb – they refuse. That is hypocrisy. I’m a woman, a feminist, a college student, a military member, NOT a christian like alot of people would like to assume, a mother, and completely against abortion. And for those of you who want to use rape, fetal deformity, and health of the mother as an excuse for the legalization of abortion, then why don’t you fight to keep abortion legal ONLY for those reasons instead of just for any damn reason? If it’s because you believe it’s a woman’s right, then you are admitting to cold heartedness and treating fetuses the same way men have treated women. If it’s to help women who can’t take care of a child – then help those women, don’t support them doing something they don’t want to do. Pro-choice? In abortion cases I’ve come across, neither the woman nor the child had a choice. Congratulations on supporting a woman doing something she doesn’t want to do.

  7. Serena on

    Personally I believe in karma. Those women who abort out of just plain selfishness will get what’s coming to them. By the way Jennifer, I’m not a religious nuthouse either. Just a girl who’s smart enough to see that abortion is wrong.

  8. Greg on

    If abortion was illegal, it wouldn’t be right to punish women who got one because a lot of women get them out of sheer despair, not evilness. However, I do know plenty of women who’ve had abortions just because they didn’t want a kid. Personally, I believe they should be locked up in jail just like any other woman would if she killed a 1 year old. But you can’t prove who gets an abortion out of desperation or selfishness. THAT’S why it was so difficult for these people to answer this question. NOT because pro-life people are idiots. Get a clue people.

  9. jennifer on

    Wow, Greg just explained it beautifully………..

  10. Greg on

    *thanx*

  11. Ben on

    Jennifer,
    After 25 years, studies have shown that many women how have abortions go on to lead productive and happy lives. They also have children.

    Greg, if you agree abortion is murder, shouldn’t the sentence be – death? Just like the doctors who perform them.

    Let’s see. America has the highest per capita prisoner rate in the world right now. Then let’s add lots of women who get life without parole for abortion. Gee how do we pay for it. I know! We’ll make them all work for the public good without pay. It’s called slavery.

    Jennifer, Greg, Serena. Are any of you not born again?

    Believe me. I don’t think those people were stupid. I think those people had never seriously asked the question. They haven’t thought about the consequences. They haven’t thought about the consequences of having millions more low income, unwanted children in America. Because that would be a good thing.

    I, for one, would be far more will to listen to anti-abortion activists, if the infant mortality rate (defined as child deaths <1 year old) wasn’t higher in America than say, England, Germany, France, Spain, Canada….

    It is far better to birth the children and then let them die. Right?

  12. jennifer on

    “It is far better to birth the children and then let them die. Right?”

    Ben – Little do you know this actually happens. Some abortionists fail to kill the baby when it is still inside the womb. Then the baby is born and is beaten, strangled, left to die in a cold metal pan, etc. Ever heard of Gianna Jessen? And what exactly is the difference between a baby dying inside and a baby dying outside the womb? You make it sound like a baby dying outside the womb is something terrible. Wait a minute – IT IS! And so is the former.

    “It’s called slavery.”

    Ben – Abortion is Genocide!

    “After 25 years, studies have shown that many women how have abortions go on to lead productive and happy lives. They also have children.”

    Ben – If the Nazis had their way, and proceeded to take over the world and continued to exterminate people at their will – they would have gone on to lead productive happy lives too.

    “They haven’t thought about the consequences of having millions more low income, unwanted children in America”

    Ben – And so your answer is to brutally, violently, tear these children limb from limb and throw them into an incinerator along with unwanted cats and dogs from the pound? If so, then we Americans are no better than Nazis. Actually YOU Americans, because this American doesn’t support that.

    And lastly, I’ll say again. Many many women have abortions and didn’t want to have them. Many women were forced to because they had no support. Why help these women do something with their bodies they didn’t want to do?

  13. Ben on

    Jennifer,

    Little do you know this actually
    happens. Some abortionists fail to kill the baby when it is still inside the womb.

    Please site statistics from either the CDC, the AMA or any secular source showing how many “some abortionists” is. Failing that, show me that it happens at all. I repeat. I want secular sources, not religious tracts.

    Abortion is Genocide!

    Genocide is used to describe the extermination of a specific race. Could you please specify the race being killed.

    You were right. I failed to clairfy my next point. Statistics show that women who have abortions, go on to have as many children as women who don’t have abortions.

    Economist Steven Levitt has shown the effects of unwanted children in America. He and John Donahue showed that crime and murder rates dropped after abortion was legalized. They felt this was due to the fact that the children were wanted and being born into families who could care for them. Of course the idea is a little controversial.

    Finally you comment that women are being forced to have abortions. I assume you mean economically and not at gun point. Right? Could you please show me the efforts being made to support these women. Do you have to be religious or can anyone get that help? You say yourself there isn’t enough support. What kind of support do you envision?

    But please answer my question from my original comment. Why don’t you spend your time saving the children being born now before you move on to trying to save the unborn? Aren’t you just increasing the problem? Or isn’t that it a problem that children are dying now “because they had no support?”

    Of course you seem to hold America in such high regard. Have you ever looked at any comparisons?

  14. Teresa on

    Ben,

    The “Abortion is genocide!” and “B irth control is Genocide!” are very common among certain populations.

    Go to Neo-Nazi and Christian Identity sites, andyou will find out where those slogans come from.

    Those people believe that “liberals” and “race traitors” are trying to destroy the white race by preventing white babies. Stormfront and National Vanguargd are full of it, for instance.

    I bet a few of your commenters got here by following Goggle searches results for “Prussian Blue” or some of your anti-neo-nazi entries.

  15. Ben on

    Teresa,

    I get lot’s of Prussian Blue traffic, some of it from Kalispell which makes me wonder who reads me.

    On the one hand, you’re right of course. The origin of the genocide argument is from White Supremist, Neo-Nazi, Christian Identity movement. But as the right slowly, (and it seems) inexorably drifts even farther into extremist camps, I can’t help but wonder though if Jennifer used the slogan just because it’s out there.

    It might be just like the people interviewed for the original film, they just haven’t given any thought to the words and simply parrot them. Outlaw abortion! But the poor women shouldn’t go to jail. It’s a congnitive disconnect.

    And we both know this is the future of the right wing. It’s not like College Republicans would also host pro-life displays to tick off “librls.”

  16. Teresa on

    Ben,

    Is your Goggle ranking a lot higher than mine (woudn’t be surprised) but I tear into Prussian Blue and Stormfront and National Vanguard just as much as you do…and nada.

    ‘course, I’m kind of glad the weirdos ignore me. 🙂

    I’ve got nice, normal conservative nuts like Mark and Neil who wouldn’t hurt a fly unless it was a home-invading fly and they hurt it with their trusty side-arm.

  17. Ben on

    I really have no idea.

    It might be my tone. You seem to understand that a large portion of what I write is reality dipped and deep-fried in irony. I don’t think many people get that.

    Also, my blog is far less personal. Even though there is a very familiar tone, I don’t think very much of my personal life filters through. (I could be wrong though.) That makes it easier for the true believers to bite down and start chewing.

    I also get my exceptions. There was the WanderingScribe stalker guy but that was more of an outlier.

    You have attracted a couple of fun one’s. Not many and they don’t stay long, but you do get a couple. Remember the lady who freaked out over our end-of-times/rapture chatter? I think we just made her nervous.

    Oh. And I’m sure Neil and Mark would also start blasting away at one of the feared federal, tax flíes. We both know they buzz home to the hive and feed the babies; to Neil and Mark they are just bloodsuckers.

  18. Teresa on

    I’m not sure I remember her specifically…I make a LOT of people nervous…

    Oh wait…was that the woman who runs the anti-arab hate propaganda site?

    The feeling was mutual.

  19. jennife on

    Ben,

    The 1st website talks about the law Bush signed a few years ago. You know why? Because babies do come out alive sometimes instead of dead like they are supposed to from an abortion. The Senate passed this bill. Both democrats and republicans agreed on it. Duh, they made this law because it happens.

    Born-Alive Infants Protection Act:
    http://www.nrlc.org/Federal/Born_Alive_Infants/

    This is a website that names several aborted people alive today. Hello – GIANNA JESSEN.

    http://members.tripod.com/~joseromia/survivors.html

    This is a news report on a baby born in an abortion clinic and tossed in the trash:

    http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jul/06073103.html

    Here’s a news report about a mom who gave birth to a live baby and screamed for the clinic to help her save the baby. But they refuesed.

    http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/apr/05042504.html

    These are testimonies from former abortionists and some of them mention live babies being born and then killed.

    http://www.prolifeaction.org/providers/

    There you go Ben. Proof that babies are sometimes born alive in abortion clinics. There’s more than that but if you really want to know, you’ll search yourself.

    Abortion IS Genocide. The powers that be just haven’t decided to add – stage of life – to the definition yet because much of the world is pro-choice. The one’s that win the war, writes the history books.

    Lots of women are forced to have abortions. I personally know a girl who’s boyfriend, friends, and family forced her to have an abortion. She didn’t want one. She is severly mentally and emotionally damaged because of it. When my best friend got pregnant, her mom and one of her friends literally pulled her arm and tried to drag her to an abortion clinic. Her boyfriend tried to talk her into it too, and she almost went thru with it, but thankfully didn’t do it. Another friend got pregnant and her boyfriend told her to get an abortion and he payed for it. She didn’t want to but she had to because she already had 3 other kids and doesn’t make much money. She regrets it. I know A LOT of women who had abortions and most of them did not want to do it. And yes, there are some women who were held at gunpoint by their boyfriends. And recently Feminists For Life went undercover at UCLA posing as a pregnant student at the health center. Read what happened:
    http://www.feministsforlife.org/news/PRcopUCLAprNewsire1-22-07.htm

    “Why don’t you spend your time saving the children being born now before you move on to trying to save the unborn? Aren’t you just increasing the problem? Or isn’t that it a problem that children are dying now “because they had no support?”

    I do help children who are born buddy. I volunteer AND donate money to organizations that help children. I’m assuming you’re pro-choice right? You never really said so, but it sounds like it. Pro-choice people almost always accuse pro-lifers of all sorts of things without even knowing those people. You automatically assumed I don’t do anything to help born children. I wonder if I hadn’t posted I wasn’t religious, would you have assumed I was Christian. Most pro-choicers have told me to keep my christian bullshit to myself and it always makes me laugh because I’m not christian. They just assumed it.

    “Could you please show me the efforts being made to support these women. Do you have to be religious or can anyone get that help? You say yourself there isn’t enough support. What kind of support do you envision?”

    What kind of support do YOU envision? Please show you the efforts being made!?!?! What would be the point to that? To validate the need for it? So what if there was no effort being made? Would you try to use that to prove to me that abortion should be the answer to women’s problems? If YOU gave a damn, you’d be making your own effort to help support, not trying to patronize me. And for your information – there are pregnancy resource centers, women and children centers, foster families for homeless pregnant women, and of course FEMINISTS FOR LIFE. Look em’ up. They are a fantastic organization who are working hard to HELP women. I support them and their cause. I know too many women who had abortions and didn’t want to. If more people supported these kinds of organizations, more women wouldn’t be FORCED to have abortions.

  20. jennife on

    Also here’s a website with the testimony of many young girls who had abortions. They talk about how hurtful and damaging it has been to them. Proff that abortion hurts many women, not helps them.

    http://www.standupgirl.com

    Also there are numerous Post-Abortion Counseling all over the nation. They help women who are traumitized after having an abortion. Just look em’ up in your local telephone directory. Question: Now why would there be a need for them unless lots of women regretted their abortion? Remember, I personally know a lot of them.

  21. jennifer on

    Sorry for the misspellings, I’m typing an awful lot, awfully fast. But anyways, everyone should look up http://www.standupgirl.com Hear it from the girls themselves instead of disbelieving me.

  22. jennifer on

    Oh yah

    “Economist Steven Levitt has shown the effects of unwanted children in America. He and John Donahue showed that crime and murder rates dropped after abortion was legalized. They felt this was due to the fact that the children were wanted and being born into families who could care for them.”

    Of course crime and muder rates will go down, because part of it was turned legal. Now most of the people who are killed in the world will be legally killed. You get to live a free and peaceful life while they get brutally killed. Perhaps if people like you put more effort into actually helping and teaching love and kindness, we wouldn’t need to throw children in the garbage. Oh wait, I don’t want to be like those pro-choicers and accuse you of not putting forth the effort. How do you put forth that effort Mr. Ben?

  23. Teresa on

    Jennifer,

    One of the ways you can put forth the effort for unwanted children is to fund their care and upkeep when they are born to people who can’t afford to care for them, but can’t have an abortion because you made it illegal.

    But oh wait, most people who are against abortion are also against paying any kind of taxes.

    Another thing you could do is try to create a society that isn’t focused on revenge and retribution as ways to deal with conflicts. Oh wait. Most people who are “pro-life” are also pro-war, pro-death-penatly, and are in favor of the “castle doctrine” and argue that someone should not be charged for shooting and killing another person if they feel threatened by that peraon…don’t feel that they have to answer for their actions or justify them in any way.

    Another thing you could do to create a less violent, more child-friendly society is to allow child-welfare agencies to protect children by removing them from abusive families. Most pro-lifers are against that because it “destroys families”

    Also, there is birth control, but most pro-lifers are against birth-control because it “destroys morality”.

    Finally, abortions were never counted in murder statistics, even when it was illegal. The murder rates that dropped were real murder rates, not artificially inflated by abortion statistics.

    You didn’t really believe that did you?

    Holy cow.

  24. Lena on

    What would happen if abortion were illegal?
    MMMMMM now thats f*C***G tough! For starters
    A) Little hoes wouldnt be having sex.
    B) Millions of babies would live!
    C) People who have sex would become responsible for the life they made and take care of the baby!
    D) More people who are responsible and actualyy want a child would be able to adopt unwanted, unaborted babies.
    E) Women would not live with the GUILT of killing a baby, their baby.
    F) Less women would commit suicide due to being unable to live with the guilt of an abortion.
    G)Women would not be going against the bible.

    Oh and in response to some of the morons who wrote stupid, little uneducated responses to abortion i will direct my responses to a few.
    To: Teresa we pay taxes!!!!! Our income is well over $300,000.00 a year. We always pay max, do you? Nah didnt think so. I am for birth control, and am Pro-life, you are getting your religion in this issue. Your comment about abortions never being counted as murder even when it was illegal is so funny!! Of course it wasnt because they a) were not caught. b) were not tried and c) even OJ was found not guilty!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you starting to get it????????????? Hope so cause you sound like you have had so many abortions that the rod and suction actually sucked out your brain….Get with the program people,
    Abortion is murder!!!!!!!!!!!

  25. jennifer on

    Teresa,

    I had a better time debating with Ben because he didn’t spend as much time as you citing what other people think and concentrated more on what I thought. If that is really how you think pro-lifers think, well then the problem here is the backwards way that those people think. It still has absolutely nothing whatsover to do with whether or not abortion is wrong. Pointing out other people’s flaws does nothing to point out the flaws in the subject being talked about.

    “One of the ways you can put forth the effort for unwanted children is to fund their care and upkeep when they are born to people who can’t afford to care for them, but can’t have an abortion because you made it illegal.

    But oh wait, most people who are against abortion are also against paying any kind of taxes.”

    You obviously don’t read my posts. I clearly listed the many ways in which a few women are being helped. What needs to be done is more people getting involved in these organizations. And saying hould we fund the care of these unwanted children is proving that YOU don’t care about them and would rather have them dead than have to put forth any effort at all to save them. And by admitting that, you are admitting that you want abortion legal to make life better for you by not having to deal with them, and not because you “care” about women like most pro-choice feminists do. I’m assuming that’s how you feel – abortion “helps” women, right? Well that’s all bull$#@! Women don’t want abortion legal because they care about women. Women want abortin legal simply because they can’t stand to hear someone tell them they can’t do something. That’s all about ego there. By the way, I never said I wouldn’t pay taxes to fund any help for those women who DON’T WANT TO HAVE ABORTIONS! Yes you obviously don’t read my posts.

    “Another thing you could do is try to create a society that isn’t focused on revenge and retribution as ways to deal with conflicts. Oh wait. Most people who are “pro-life” are also pro-war, pro-death-penatly, and are in favor of the “castle doctrine” and argue that someone should not be charged for shooting and killing another person if they feel threatened by that peraon…don’t feel that they have to answer for their actions or justify them in any way.”

    This is so off the subject it’s ridiculous. But I’ll respond anyways, if only to prove that unlike you, I read the posts before saying something. By pro-war, you probably mean the war in the gulf. Never did I say I support that. Pro-death penalty: What is wrong with this? Abortion kills innocent children. The death penalty kills guilty murderers. There is no comparison. And please don’t bring up innocent murderers found guilty, because that is another subject in itself.

    “Another thing you could do to create a less violent, more child-friendly society is to allow child-welfare agencies to protect children by removing them from abusive families. Most pro-lifers are against that because it “destroys families”

    This is an absolute accusation. Pro-lifers wanting abusive families to retain their children? You are making this up. The child-welfare agencies are messed up. There are people in the system who are doing their jobs. No one is not allowing them to be removed from their abusive homes. The agencies are merely messed up and not doing their jobs. This again has nothing to do with abortion. And might I add, what are YOU doing to create a less violent, more child-friendly society? Pro-choicers like to point fingers and lay blames, but I have yet to hear answers from them. Could it be because they are selfish and don’t want to put forth effort? After all, it’s Sooo much easier to throw away defenseless unwanted children in the trash than to deal with them. Pretty selfish.

    “Also, there is birth control, but most pro-lifers are against birth-control because it “destroys morality”.”

    I happen to support birth control honey. It’s the catholic church that opposes it, not specifically pro-lifers. But again, pointing out this flaw does nothing to validate killing a baby in the womb.

    “Finally, abortions were never counted in murder statistics, even when it was illegal. The murder rates that dropped were real murder rates, not artificially inflated by abortion statistics.”

    I admit I was being a bit sarcastic when I mentioned this. I was just trying to point out how you people don’t consider killing a person IN the womb the same as killing people OUTSIDE the womb. What this does prove though is that unwanted children end up in unloved, undisciplined, uneducated, impoverished environments that no doubt, leads to higher crime rates including murder. And your answer to this is to turn around and kill these poor children? You can’t come up with anything better than that? Do you volunteer with organizations that help children? The YMCA is a great place. Did you even look up Feminists For Life? Did you see all the great things they are doing to help pregnant college women finish school so they won’t end up poor and in these situations? If you really want to help, then get involved with them.

    Oh and one more thing. I used to really hate Hillary Clinton. I still don’t like her, but I don’t hate her as much as I used to. Apparantly even though she’s pro-choice, she made it very clear that abortion should be a very, very rare thing. She admits that so many women having abortions reflects that we have a big problem in our society. For once I’m willing to listen to a pro-choicer. For once a pro-choicer is admitting there’s a problem and wants to fix it. Now are you going to help or just keep pointing fingers?

  26. jennifer on

    “There are people in the system who are doing their jobs. ”

    I meant: There are people in the child-welfare system that are NOT doing their jobs.

    And I want to stress again nobody is not allowing them to. They have internal problems that need to be fixed. The child-welfare system is very messed up. By the way, when I am older and my own children are grown, I’m going to be a foster parent. Doing my part to help poor, unwanted, unloved children. Yup. That’s me, walking walk not just talking the talk. Thank you.

  27. jennifer on

    Oh yah, here you go once again.

    http://www.feministsforlife.org/

  28. Lena on

    Jennifer, You go girl! Some people dont like the truth, but you know as well as i that abortion stops a beating heart.

  29. Ben on

    Jennifer,

    Sorry, – your longer post got caught in my spam filter due to the large number of links. It has been approved. Again. Sorry.

    Wow. Too. Much. Stuff.

    I would need months trying to debunk all the incorrect and illogical things you said but let’s try just a few. Again. This doesn’t mean I am implicitly or explicitly agreeing with anything you said. I don’t.

    First.
    Sorry Jennifer, you didn’t hit my target. I asked you,

    Please site statistics from either the CDC, the AMA or any secular source showing how many “some abortionists” is. Failing that, show me that it happens at all. I repeat. I want secular sources, not religious tracts.

    I asked for numbers not stories. Tell my how often this is happening. I asked for numbers from secular sources. Perhaps non-partisan would have been a better term. You didn’t give me any. Instead you chose to tell me stories from propaganda sites.

    (Let’s try an analogy. Assume, I claim all students of Asian decent must be deported because they are dangerous and murderers. You tell me to show you numbers. I point to Seung-Hui Cho of Virginia Tech and Gang Lu of the University of Iowa. Case closed. Right? You’ll be signing my petition?)

    And since the practice of Intact D&X you described is already illegal, shouldn’t you stop protesting and go home? Or better yet spend more time protesting the U.S. attorney’s offices because they simply aren’t enforcing the law. Or is this whole thing simply a myth you don’t want to drop?

    You continually use terms like many, lots and stories. Give me numbers. How often is this happening in the larger scheme of things.

    Abortion IS Genocide. The powers that be just haven’t decided to add – stage of life – to the definition yet because much of the world is pro-choice. The one’s that win the war, writes the history books.

    No. Genocide is genocide. You can’t redefine words to make them mean what you want. It doesn’t work that way. Let’s try this. I define church service to include demonology and virgin sacrifices to Satan. Therefore we will claim church services are evil and need to be outlawed. Are you with me here? You’ll go along with that. right?

    Genocide is “the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national or racial group.” That is what the word means. Just because you would like to change the meaning to fit your slogan makes neither your argument stronger nor your slogan more correct. Genocide has as little to do with age as church services with virgin sacrifices.

    You started off with the claim

    . “If you so-called feminists REALLY care about women, you’d fight to help women who only have abortions because they are FORCED to under their unfortunate circumstances.”

    And I asked, wouldn’t you eliminate abortions simply by improving the circumstances?

    But later In your comments you said that family and friends were forcing the women to have abortions,

    Lots of women are forced to have abortions. I personally know a girl who’s boyfriend, friends, and family forced her to have an abortion. She didn’t want one. She is severly mentally and emotionally damaged because of it. When my best friend got pregnant, her mom and one of her friends literally pulled her arm and tried to drag her to an abortion clinic. Her boyfriend tried to talk her into it too, and she almost went thru with it, but thankfully didn’t do it. Another friend got pregnant and her boyfriend told her to get an abortion and he payed for it. She didn’t want to but she had to because she already had 3 other kids and doesn’t make much money. She regrets it. I know A LOT of women who had abortions and most of them did not want to do it. And yes, there are some women who were held at gunpoint by their boyfriends.

    Which is it, the family or “circumstances.” Gunpoint? And again. Lots, A LOT, some…

    You seem to think that pro-choice supporters feel abortion is a good thing. Something to be celebrated. It isn’t. But if the choice is between two bad things, the question is which is worse. You have made your choice. (See. You really are pro-choice – deep inside.)

    And it really does come down to which option is worse, you riff off on a rather long rant that I don’t seem to be doing enough. I was asking whether you were putting the cart before the horse. You keep saying there are enough places to support the children being born. Infant mortality rates in America are higher than any equivalant western country. If there are support systems, why don’t they work? You said yourself,

    I clearly listed the many ways in which a few women are being helped. What needs to be done is more people getting involved in these organizations

    .

    Shouldn’t that happen first? Shouldn’t that be the first soapbox? Build up the support services so they can handle the current load. Then you stop the abortions and deal with any issues that arise then? If you do it the other way around, won’t the already overwelmed “sevices” collapse and you’ll simply have a huge problem and no way to solve it. Or isn’t that your problem?

    Interestingly statistics show that on average women who have one or more abortions don’t have less children, they simply have children at different times. They have children that don’t need support systems because the woman is in a better position to take care of her child.

    Finally. Without getting into the middle of your fight with Teresa, I would make one aside. If you support the following positions, a) child welfare organizations are good in principle, b) it is legitimate to remove children from homes because of abuse and mistreatment [aside: does malnourishment due to low income qualify as mistreatment?], and c) the only problem is that government run child welfare organizations are mismanaged; why aren’t you part of a huge national movement to get the child welfare organizations redesigned and more efficient? Where’s the religious-run pro-welfare movement? Oh. Yeah. Faith based Organisations. Got it.

    Finally. My question about being born again has to do with the fact that your position is religious based. That’s fine. I just think you should admit it front and center and not claim there are other issues.

    Lena,
    I’m not even going to start. I mean “hoes!?” Thanks for the chuckle.

    Teresa,
    See. I attract the really cool people. See directly above.

  30. Teresa on

    Jennifer,

    You missed M”Y points completly.

    You accused me of not caring about the children and wanting them killed instead, when in actuality I was saying that if people like you were willing to help reduce the pressures on women that cause them to choose abortion, then there would be less abortion, but instead you just want to take the easy (and cheap) way out to make it illegal and ignore the resulting children, washing your hands of the whole issue.

    But it was easier for you to misinterpret what I said. I understand. just like a pro-lifer, taking the easy way out.

  31. Teresa on

    Hey!

    Where’d Jennifer go? It’s been, like DAYS and nothing.

    I’m bored. bored bored bored.

    Ben! Entertain me. and no more General Petraus stuff either. He’s boring.

    I want more Mr. Giggles. He’s funny.


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